hello everybody and welcome to another episode of hard truths podcast today I have a very special guest his name is

Jason geani he is an author and philosopher Jason thank you very much for being my guest on hard truths how

are you doing today it's an absolute pleasure to be with you Ashton and uh I'm glad that we finally got to meet

I've been following your work for a few what is it a couple of years now yeah

and um let me just start off by thanking you for the incredible research that you've done um I'm sold your case for

the plane so we'll see I mean it's a it looks like a pretty sound hypothesis to me well this is going to be a great

crossover event that we got going on so right off the bat I want to know a little bit about your origin story and

how you got involved in this I first saw you on Danny Jones I started looking into your research and your work started

talking about Zero Point Energy and that Always Rings some bells for me because I consider myself influencer Zero Point

Energy so how did you get involved in looking into all of this advanced technology Breakaway civilization stuff

and you know the crossover at the UFO Community well I came out with a book in

2016 called Prometheus and Atlas and um it was an expansion of my doctoral

dissertation um about twice the length of the the dissertation version and uh it won the

2016 book award of the parapsychological association uh and uh I also joined the

society um for scientific exploration uh in the same year as uh Prometheus and

Atlas won the PA book award so I began to make a number of Connections in the parapsychology community uh and

interestingly enough I found that especially through the ssse that Community overlapped a lot with the UFO

Community uh which dovetails with Zero Point Energy Research and so forth I mean there are people like uh you know

Hal put off that have cross-listed membership between these two organizations by the way let me ask you

for a small favor Ashton I hate looking at myself on uh recordings which is why

I never do um you know individual podcasts so so stay with me as much as

you can so I'm not left here you know uh looking at my own mug anyway so um you

know I began to make a lot of connections in that community and at that time I was also doing uh

shows with Jeffrey mishlove on new thinking loud um and he had a lot of

other guests on that show that were part of the same community so I started to meet people like jacqu Val I mean jacqu

valet reached out to me uh I think within a few months of Prometheus and Atlas having come out he read the book

um invited me to his home I had a very nice dinner with him and his his then wife uh second wife and um so so you

know I started to make a lot of connections people in the remote viewing Community people in military

intelligence uh and wound up at the Nexus of um what eventually would become

the so-called UFO disclosure movement uh except that at just the

moment when you know I was at you know basically becoming the Nexus of all

these connections and you know a promising young theorist in this domain

uh I was uh defamed in in what I eventually found out was an intelligence operation and I think the reason for

that which will come clearer as we you know unpack this discussion over time is

that the kinds of arguments that I advance in my book on uh Close

Encounters are are things that would have been severely disruptive to the type of narrative that The Gatekeepers

of UFO disclosure are uh forwarding today so what do you think that's a

great question great segue which is what what do you think the the Nar they're trying to spread is and what narrative

do you think they're afraid of and who do you think these people are like who are they connected to what what are your

opinions of the UFO Community as well look it's actually very complex um

so you know one of the the fallacies that a lot of people who engage in you

know conspiracy theorizing fall prey to is the overly simplistic view that the

deep state is monolithic it's really not uh maybe unfortunately not uh because you know

there's a lot of um really dangerous chaos at at at play behind the

scenes you I think had had been interested in um you know inquiring into

who's behind this slow drip model for disclosure uh and so let me start there

I think maybe you know best to flesh things out from there I can tell you

based on two individuals who worked with the former

Director of National int well yeah at this point former Director of National Intelligence averil

Haynes um I can tell you based on two different individuals one of whom is a

CIA officer who worked with her as a colleague in UFO working group meetings

UAP working group meetings round tables basically and from another

individual who worked directly under her uh as a private contractor and who also

had very high level contracts with the National geospatial Intelligence Agency which is the same organization that

David grush is coming from out of right yeah the NGA so I I I have two independent points of

confirmation about you know what the slow drip disclosure agenda was and it

was an agenda being run from out of ail haynes's office apparently with her as the Director of it my and the agenda was

this okay first of all their priority was to

make it as if the United to make it appear as if the United States government was not investigating uaps in

any serious way prior to like I don't know 15 20 years ago prior to the nits incident and these videos of the Tic Tac

and so forth that they released okay so they wanted a clean slate approach where they're not going to be held legally

accountable for anything that they had done in the preceding I don't know what 70 years or more actually we'll get into

the more because this goes actually back to the airships of 1897 and so forth but

so that that was their number one priority make it look like everything started with the nits and these these types of

incidents and uh interestingly enough the fir this was like a four or five

phase plan that they have that was supposed to be um unfolded over the course of something like 15 to 20 years

and the first phase I was told was that they were going to use the James web

telescope this new telescope that they have out there to um to basically

release to the public imagery of apparent artificial structures on

distant bodies in our solar system so not necessarily planets but maybe on the

moons of Jupiter and the moons of Saturn there were going to be structures that were unambiguously artificial and that

those were the first things that would be released to the public uh because you know the idea was okay well these are

far away they don't present any imminent threat people are not going to panic then the next phase was that they'd

identify structures on the moon on our own Moon and on Mars that are

artificial and the third phase was that they were going to try to connect these

structures on the moon and Mars to anomalous archaeological sites on Earth

wow like for example the oiran at abidos in Egypt or uh tiwanaku in Bolivia and

they were going to note structural similarities between some of these sites like for example it appears that the

site on the Dark Side of the Moon involves a construction technique uh

with something like a poured Stone like a kind of as if you could you know

subject Stone to some kind of chemical compound that would liquefy it and turn it into something like Concrete where

then you could shape the stone or maybe some kind of AIC resonance could be used to molecularly destabilize the stone and

then shape it and that they were going to note that the same kind of construction techniques had been

employed on these sites on Earth so maybe there's a common builder then the fourth phase and so now

we're like 10 years out in their plan of slow D drip disclosure the fourth phase was going to be anth

tropological uh that they were going to excavate remains of humanoids who they

believed were responsible for these engineering anomalies on the Moon Mars

uh other moons in the solar system and also for anomalous sites on Earth and

these were going to be these very tall people you know who are referred to as I don't know Nephilim and Giants and so

forth in various you know mythological Traditions uh and they were going to do DNA testing on these people and this was

all step by step slowly going to lead to the disclosure of these people

themselves as the pilots of uaps interesting that was the original

now here's the interesting thing Ashton is when David grush came out and this speaks to the you know deep State not

being a monolith when David grush came out with his um leaks quote

unquote uh these people were insens they had no idea it was going to

happen they did not authorize him to be saying the things he was saying and mainly they were so outraged

because he was directly implicating the United States government in a cover up on all kinds of levels from the You Know

cover up of the technology and reverse engineering efforts to cover up of biological entities and so on so forth

and so he basically threw a monkey wrench in their phased disclosure plan

and what that immediately says to me is there we're dealing with at least two factions because you know grush is not a

whistleblower grush is hunt man for people within defense intelligence who

have their own agenda of what should be released when so here we've got at least two different competing agendas and then

we can get into why I think there's a a third and maybe even a fourth agenda as well so yeah let me address some of

those claims because I love what you're saying there first of all AAL Hines AAL Hayes however she says her last name people should probably be saying her

name way more often technically current director of National Intelligence Director of National Intelligence really

big role really glad tulsy gabbard's going to get in there somebody who has probably no insight as what's really

going on behind the scenes and I I'm very curious to see how her public Persona changes after she gets in and

gets exposed to some of this because like what you said about the factions I totally agree the joke that I've been

making on podcast is that I think there's at least two factions one that doesn't want any of this stuff to come out because they think that maybe it's

too dangerous or they want the power or what have you and then there's another one that wants like a little bit of it

to come out but they don't want all nobody wants like all of it to come out a catastrophic disclosure at least how

I've looked at it so what you said about David grush makes a lot of sense as well is that there's another faction going

hey you you need to go out there and go start telling people that like we've got these videos of UFOs and it's pretty

clearly exotic technology it's not airplanes flying around with conventional means and things like that

and talking about alien bodies and what have you um so what then do you think

about like you know who's on what side right like when I'm looking at the UFO

Community I personally feel like a lot of the people I see at the UFO Community The Front Runners the ones that are on

mainstream shows like the lzos the jery corbels um the George naps

that are out there their whole crew they they all talk to each other it's very obvious that they do and they

communicate with one another the impression I get from them is that they have decided they're going to protect

National Security by not revealing the technology or any technology that would

put the United States at a disadvantage relative to other countries that like you know maybe we're reverse engineering

this UFO technology we've got this uh either free energy or super Advanced super weapons and they're going that

we're not going to talk about that so instead we're just going to talk about the alien aspect of and then on the other side I see people

like Dr Steven Greer who talks a ton about the technology he still talks

about the alien side of it as well but really talks to the Black Project Engineers is like hey these guys are

telling you we've got this exotic technology out there and we've figured it out um how do you see all these

people and and which ones do you trust or not trust oh man I don't trust any of them

it's good I don't trust any of them uh okay look going back to grush I think that the

higher uh ranking individuals who authorized grush to um act as a frontman

for the highly selective disclosure of certain information are defectors from

the organization which at one point may have been called mj12 if it was actually called that and

the mj12 documents that were leaked aren't forgeries if uh then the

organization certainly isn't called that anymore and in any case that organization was privatized it was taken

from you know government agencies into private Aerospace uh by the 1970s at the

latest um but I think that the the gentleman who authorized grush to come forward are defectors from that

organization wow so you have this kind of mj12 turned you know private

corporate Aerospace cabal and there are um what you might call Old Guard

individuals in that organization who don't want any of this release they want to keep it secret for as long as they

possibly can they want a monopoly on the technology and there's an argument to be made

that if they haven't already branched off and become a breakaway civilization they're in the process of doing so and

then you have defectors from that organization people people who and it's been explained to me that perhaps part

of this is a generational shift and that it's some of the younger people who are

behind Rush who are sort of breaking with the old guard um but in any case those are two factions of you know what

at one point was called mj12 I think that there's a fourth group

so we've talked about you know the averil haes slow drip people then grus

who represents the defectors in mj12 then the Old Guard of mj12 I think

there's also a fourth group uh which we can you know unpack in more detail as as

you know we move along with the conversation but that fourth group um are individuals who are informally

referred to as the Collins Elite and these are Evangelical or or

traditionalist Christians they may be Evangelical Protestants they may be traditionalist Catholics who uh are in

the CIA Air Force Naval intelligence other branches of Defense intelligence

and in their capacity as private individuals beginning in the

19 look at least since the 1940s in the era of Jack Parsons quite possibly long

before then and I've made the case that they may go back to the Airship mystery of the 18 you know 1896

1897 um this private group of devout

Christians uh has come to the conclusion that somehow the UFO phenomenon is

inextricable from the occult and that probably it represents a demonic force

that needs to be held at Bay and so they see the secrecy as basically a uh stop

Gap uh keeping the Apocalypse at Bay and we so we also have these Nut Cases you

know in in the government at various level I mean you know I would have said it's nutty a couple years ago but the

more I think about the implications of this technology and I want to talk about that like the latter half of this

podcast more I think man it's not that crazy to think this technology could lead to the

apocalypse true the way that Peter teal you know framed it is is actually thought provoking and we can come back

to that yeah yeah you know what let's talk about that right now just because we brought it up because I wanted to ask you this was one of the things I was

watching another podcast that you did and it kind of blew me away where you were talking about the technology and

you explained like what if it that what if this technology is so powerful that you either have to be like fully

altruistic iist Society or you have to be like a fascist uh or like what a

collectivist fascist totalitarian Society or a perfectly altruistic Freedom society that you would never

harm another thing and you go well humans are never going to be perfectly altruistic there's no chance on that and

I heard Peter theel say this I think you said it before him when he went on jogan he goes what if they have to be all

Angels or all demons that thought terrifies me because it's so different than how we've structured our Society

currently and I think most freedom of loving Americans I'm a Libertarian look at that idea and go this is

outlandish and it presents a pretty complicated dilemma which is would we

want this technology if it meant that we have to do away with individual freedoms to prevent us from destroying ourselves

so first of all did you talk to Peter theel or you in contact with him how do you guys both have the same view and you

know can you expand upon your thoughts around on that I've never spoken to him

I know people who know him uh I've known more than one individual who's been in in in touch with him um how do we share

the same view well uh unfortunately it's a view that I think any thoughtful

person who spent a long time contemplating the various dimensions of

this phenomenon uh and the implications of reverse engineering it its technology

would come to the conclusion uh so look there are at least

two serious issues here yeah one is the security implications of the

propulsion system right because and even there there are two

there are at least two separate sub isues so one of them is this that I mean

look if if you look throughout the course of history at very various forms of

combustion from gunpowder to you know gas driven combustion to uh conventional

explosives to then uh nuclear weapons as

an application of nuclear energy of nuclear fusion and fision it is the case

that every time we've scaled up our magnitude of energy usage and harnessing

of a new magnitude of energy we've also developed uh Weaponry that's

commensurately higher in order of magnitude of its destructive potential right I mean this is a very clear Trend

in human history so the question is uh you know is there a kind of weapon that

would be um an order of magnitude more destructive than nuclear

weapons and that would be a dual use uh you know military application of what

you might call a free energy system right and clearly the answer is yes I

mean if you look at what it is that's propelling these uh UFOs or

uaps it is a kind of energy and propulsion platform that could be weaponized into something that would

make a nuclear bomb look like a firecracker uh Hal put off has gone on record saying and he's quoted to this

effect in uh in Nick Cook's excellent book The the hunt for zero

points um so put off said that he thought a coffee Cup's worth of the

exactly a coffee Cup's worth of the um uh you could say propellant for this uh

Craft um would potentially vaporize the oceans of Earth if its energy were to be

released in an uncontrollable Cascade so so as you think of a nuclear reactor right I mean a nuclear reactor releases

nuclear energy in a highly controlled manner a nuclear bomb is a sort of

runaway you know uh Cascade of of of this energy and you could do the same

thing with zero point energy to produce a bomb that would be many orders of magnitude more destructive than a

nuclear weapon so that's one problem from a security standpoint there's an

even bigger problem from a security standpoint which is that as soon as they started to research these things and uh

you know there's good evidence uh in that in our country that began in the

1950s uh there are all these mainstream newspaper reports in the New York Harold

Tribune and other you know um Publications uh I think some Aero some

aeronautical journals at the time as well um quoting CEOs of uh Martin

aircraft in particular leer conve uh and

other companies saying that they were working on anti-gravity propulsion and

that um within about the same time span as the Manhattan Project they would be

able to roll these craft off the assembly line this was in the mid1 1950s in mainstream Publications yep and the

whole thing goes dark round about 1957 or so we never hear about this

again and I think it's because what these gentlemen discovered or what was explained to them by people who already

had a grasp on this technology is that it's not simply a propulsion system that can get you from New York to Australia

in you know whatever an hour or whatever it it warps SpaceTime yeah and you know

the first people to observe this were actually the the uh the uh scientists

working in an SS Think Tank based in Prague in 1943 44 toward the end of the war where

they constructed this U that doz foot uh tall device Acorn shaped or bell-shaped

device that had uh magnetically counter rotating cylinders is that the D Glock

or is that something different the Bell it was a a device that was um that

contained inside a ceramic non-reactive material it contained counter rotating

cylinders of a Mercury thorium uh isotope that were being magnetically

rotated um with high energy with with constant uh alternating current pumped

into it and intermittent shocks of direct current and what they found was first of

all it created an anti-g gravitic effect okay it had counter Barry this this uh

electromagnetic system um shocking this Mercury thorium isotope led to

anti-gravity so that they had to change the Bell down so that it wouldn't you

know you know yeah F so they wouldn't lose bill you know billions of dollars

of hardware and uh but the other thing that they realized was it warped

SpaceTime around the bell and it it did that in ways that you know I mean

basically made plants turn to mulch it disrupted uh organisms on a cellular

molecular level because of the way in which it warped SpaceTime and and so

this was known already and you know by by the uh by the SS um toward the end of

the war and then we appropriated all of that information as the Allied Powers basically seized these facilities in

Europe in 1945 so that by the time Martin aircraft which became then locked Martin uh was working on the same thing

in the mid1 1950s I think it was explained to them that listen jackasses you think you're you know going to

create something faster than an airplane you know for the convenience of public transport you're actually creating a

flying time machine and you know you can't give a flying time machine to Tom Dick and Harriet to go around you know

mucking about in the time continuum as they so please you know I mean suppose somebody wants to go uh back and avert a

personal tragedy in their family the loss of a loved one and so forth and imagine the Ripple effects of that on a

geopolitical scale potentially yeah two security issues one is the you know

explosive potential the weapon ation in terms of explosive yield of you know a

Zero Point Energy device and the other one is the danger to the time continuum

and the fact that you know you cannot have a democratization of this technology because you know it could

basically be used to completely destabilize the time continuum yeah and I want to talk about

the time travel part A little later but I guess what I would say for right now is knowing what you just said

are you still a fan of disclosure are you Pro disclosure are you Pro this is too dangerous we need to pack this up

until we have safeguards in place to get it out safely here's my

problem the people who have taken it upon themselves to be The Gatekeepers of

disclosure particularly in what we might call The anglo-american Establishment you know the five eyes system y uh they

are lacking in Vision lacking in ethos they have apparently engaged in

all kinds of horrendously unethical behavior um you know murdering perfectly decent people

and this is another reason why okay you know it will be very difficult to have

any kind of authentic disclosure because there there's a massive amount of crime that's been committed in the name of

keeping this secret right and so my problem is that if you look back at let's say you know my background is in

philosophy right if you look back at Plato's Republic and his conception of the Guardians the philosopher Kings or

philosopher rulers of the ideal State the people who we've got protecting the secret in the anglo-american

establishment are far from it they're far from and they're already in power okay we can see how they're running the

world and then on the other side as an opposition to them we've got what uh neoc confucianist China and you know an

orthodox system in Russia you know and so the issue is that the world is

already being run by reprehensibly irresponsible and unethical people and

so you know I'm not in any position to replace them uh as someone who selects a

new governing Elite I think that a good case could be made that we ought to challenge their Authority by developing

some kind of a a rogue Society that's devoted to Liberty you know I share your

uh Liber libertarian sympathies and I think that you know a good case could be made for a

piratical sort of libertarian um appropriation of this

technology and of this power source albeit within the context of a

philosophically substantive vision of a new type of society uh with social

fabric that's capable of constructively handl this kind of technology I mean you

you you would have to be very selective about the kinds of people in terms of you know their ethical Constitution who

would be part of that Rogue Society kind of counter Breakaway civilization uh

organized around freedom and the individual and around maximizing creativity and creative potential you

would have to be very selective about that so I think a good case can be made and I have made in you know more than

one of my books for a sort of piratical revolt against the existing control

system man I I love that um and I want to touch on that in a bit I want to jump

back to a second and just explain to some of the viewers when we're talking about mj12 this idea of this Majestic 12

this Elite group of people that kind of decided what the fate of this UFO

phenomenon technology was going to be um the man's field Amendment 1971 or 1973 I

believe is when the anti-gravity technology got moved from the military to the defense contractors and they used

it to protect from foyer requests things like that um Richard feeman actually I

looked up that quote about the coffee cup because I I heard it so many times I was like where does this come from is

this real you know turns out it's from Richard feeman and John archal Wheeler and Richard feeman won the Nobel Prize

for Quantum electrodynamics uh so kind of knows a thing or two about the quantum phenomenon and yes they said

that there's enough energy in the size of I think they said like cubic meter but the idea is a very small area of

empty space so not of air or water but of literally empty space to vaporize all

the Earth's oceans which opens the door to this idea of Zero Point Energy and it

challenges the Orthodox view that uh it's called the vacuum catastrophe that

they think that they yes maybe there're 0 point energy but it's it's not it's this tiny little amount and Richard finman's like nah it's like a huge ocean

of energy um also you mentioned in terms of the timeline uh like the 40s and what also

happened in 1943 well the the M of the story of The Philadelphia Experiment

where you have all the smartest Minds were working on this project to cloak

this battle cruiser and The Story Goes it got teleported and this speaks to what you mentioned in terms of this

technology is not just you get free energy or what have you it's like this

comes with bending SpaceTime itself and what are the implications when we look at the Philadelphia Experiment

supposedly there people like stuck in the walls because they didn't you know make the field around the the craft

correctly personally I would not want to be in one of those crafts and this is

where when you mentioned the pilot scenario I wanted to get your opinion on this is that I would imagine that yes

maybe in the 40s 50s 60s 7s 80s I don't know exactly up until when we were making crafts thinking that we should

have somebody inside because we need Pilots inside of all of our crafts and I started researching Hypersonic flight or

Hypersonic spy planes like SR71 in the 60s and what I found out was that they use a plasma sheath in front of them to

minimize the drag and actually helps Propel the craft as well and they just kept thinking like well you know I think

you said this why have the spam and the can you know why would you want the person inside the craft this is just a

liability the the plane and the person inside is a liability today's day and age it's all about drones

and I just think wouldn't the government just look at this situation and go oh the plasma is what's allowing the

Hypersonic speeds it's not the craft why not just turn the plasma into a drone

I'll tell you why go ahead I'll tell you why so I I I meant to actually get into

this earlier when I was saying there's two issues yeah and then the in terms of the security issue the

weaponization and the um manipulation of the timeline are two sub issues isues

under you know the security implications of the propulsion system but then there's this other issue that I was

alluding to earlier and that has to do with the pilots so it turns

out and I'm going to tell you how I know this for well I I I believe the person who told me this but I'll I'll get into

that in a minute it turns out that the guidance system of these craft

requires interaction with human consciousness h one of the problems main problems they

had in reverse engineering these things is that they found out that the pilots are an integral component of the craft

and that they're using something like psychokinesis in order to Pilot the craft so you you can develop you know

sophisticated cybernetic interfaces to link a brain to a navigation system

obviously that's not hard to understand but it's not just a brain machine interface it actually involves

psychokinesis and so part of the crime that's been committed um in this black project is

that they have actually recruited not just Adept psychics but children with

extraordinary psychic ability to act as Pilots of these reverse engineered craft

there's a marine Michael Herrera who as part of St Greer's disclosure uh project

offered testimony to the effect that people in the US deep state State have scoured third and fourth world countries

for children who they can effectively buy from their you know impoverished parents uh and who exhibit extraordinary

Sai ability and bring them to these black uh project facilities and use them

basically as part of the guidance system to navigate with these craft uh

so I tell you I I believe this in particular because I know a gentleman

who was how can I put this

uh a very senior remote viewer okay um

with a military and intelligence background and uh very very senior

person in the remote viewing program and he was uh he he told me this in his

living room and he okay let me let me unpack this bit by bit so he what he

said was that he was taken to a locked facility in

California and that this place was in a sha okay so there was a Shack on the

side of the road by the highway it looked like a an abandoned warehouse or something and he went into this uh

Shack and the whole floor dropped the entire thing was an elevator basically

yeah and he said it went down oh Lord knows I mean hundreds and hundreds of feet through solid

rock and when he came out in this facility in California locked facility

in California they had in a huge like a hanger like well like an underground

Cavern that had been turned into a hanger they had an FAA style reconstruction of a collision between a

UFO and an airliner a I don't know if it was a civilian airliner or a military

aircraft or whatever but it was you know one of our aircraft a plane had collided with this object and they had

reconstructed it the way that the FAA reconstructs airliner crashes yeah and

um they had brought him there because they couldn't figure out the guidance

system the navigation system for the craft they were reverse engineering it but they there were key things about the

navigation system that they couldn't figure out and this gentleman figured it out for them and you know part of the

problem was that they weren't accounting for how psychokinesis is required in order to uh navigate these

electrogravitic craft so let me ask why not why can't

the solution just be AI like doesn't that seem like especially now maybe 10 years ago I would have said that sounds

crazy because AI seems so far off 10 years ago but now I use AI like every single day it seems to me especially

when I look at like Elon Musk Landing these SpaceX Rockets it's that's not human beings like controlling with a

joystick that's that's AI That's managing that you think that AI could Vector stuff the way they are but I

agree that like there's no way like conventional human reaction time can account for the movements we're seeing

with some of these objects right so let me let me respond to that in two ways

first of all I think it might be possible but I only think it might be possible to replace the human or

humanoid pilot with AI because I also think AI exhibits sigh abilities and had

experien this myself that you know the closer we're getting to artificial general intelligence we're also seeing

Sai being exhibited by artificial intelligence and if that's the case then

at some point yeah an an AI could replace a human pilot and for all we

know these Grays that people talk about are a form of artificial intelligence that there're some kind of cyborg right

so but let me go back to this story from this gentleman to to answer part of your

question um which is you know I mean why would you need a human pilot right I

mean what he said was this he said that in that facility they were training they

were trying to train our Pilots to fly these craft whether captured craft or reverse

engineered and the Pilot's brains were being scrambled by the time

dilation that they you know as they traversed space in a kind of continuous

way they were also moving through time in a way that severely disoriented them

and he had in his living room this gyroscopic model which was from like the

1960s it was a it was an antique from this kind of facility and when he was

there he saw them like that they had discarded these things they'd ripped them out they were Antiquated they'd replace them with something you know

state-of-the-art and he asked if he could take take this home with him and they let him do this and I tried to

photograph it but he took the thing away from me as I was you know about to do that and what it was is some kind of a

gyroscope gyroscopic model that showed you the amount of time dilation per the

space traveled in one of these vehicles I I don't understand the

mathematics of it I'm not a physicist but it was a model that had been set up that way yep and so when you ask you

know couldn't be replaced by AI I don't know maybe but it it seemed that they needed a

conscious mind to First be capable of psychokinesis but then also to be

trained psychologically to handle the the disorientation of time displacement

and if you could get both of those things from Adam an artificial intelligence then you might well be able to put an AI inside of a drone and you

know get rid of the need for a human pilot I think they can do that and I think the thing about sigh with AI is

really interesting because quantum computers no one really knows what we're using quantum computers for people say like we can use it to crack encryption

which sure we can but quantum computers like it holds things in super position so it's it really is almost like just

manifesting thoughts out of nowhere and I think that AI is not going to

experience time the way that we do I would even argue that because time dilation is a real effect AI might be

able to manipulate time dilation on demand potentially I mean all computer

is is energy flowing through some microchips so I think that idea is is

really interesting and uh actually you brought up a few really good uh thoughts

which is people need to understand the concept of time dilation which was in my I first time I was exposed to it was the

movie Interstellar in 2014 and the first thing I did was look it up and say is this real and not only is it real it's

been experimentally proven they've already experimentally proven that it's real and what this means about time is

that time is a dial and that every person has their dial set to something different the only reason why we don't

see this actively is because we're all on planet Earth therefore our dial is all set to the same level but in theory

you can slow your time down or increase your time up and this is really scary this is what leads to what you're

talking about with this um you know disorientation that would happen imagine you go in a craft and you're in the

craft for a day and you come out and it's a year later and you're like what what like that would be for a lot of

people that's going to break their minds you know and so you would need somebody that's got a harded mental state to be able to deal with something like that

and I actually what you said about the distance that's something that I independently came to that conclusion

like over a year ago where you know I've been promoting this MH370 videos where I believe it the plane's going directly

through a wormhole and what I told people people can go look at my little podcast I said is that the time dilation

that the people would experience is going to be proportionate to the distance traveled and this gets really weird because this is exactly what they

found at that facility which this guy was trying to explain to me yeah yep that's and I think that's exactly what

it's going to be is that the further you go the more time dilation you're going to experience so if you were to teleport

to say Alfa centari which is four years four light years away for you it might

appear to be instantaneous but when you get there it might be four years later

and then if you were to teleport back you might still be in your exact frame of reference might be like you walk

through the door you're on the other side you come back you've only gone forward an hour a day but now you come

back to earth now it's eight years later another four years has gone by that's really scary and that has major

implications for how we would conduct space travel if that's real and you can even look at it from the perspective of

planet Earth We're on a ball spinning well if you want to teleport from one point to another point you could also go

around the earth several times and then end up at that point so theoretically you could control when you show up in

the future by how many times you spin around the earth before you pop out and

that's really scary to me because what you were saying earlier is you know you can't just give people this kind of

Technology even if you can't go to the past which I'm not really convinced that you can the way I look at it is like you

can change the local entropy of a region so I could send myself my current body

to the past but I'm not going back to a past universe my belief right now and I'm open to you

know more evidence coming out is that you can only go to the Future you can slow your time rate down or you could

freeze yourself you know you freeze yourself you go to the future or you could age yourself and you could be a

hundred years older but you're only it's only a day has gone by that that's how I imagine time travel working but even in

that scenario there are huge implications imagine if everybody on

Earth said you know what I don't like 2020 24 I want to go to 20 2134 100

years in the future I'm just going to go ahead and slow my time dial down freeze

myself and I'm just gonna wake up in a hundred years how would if we had that capability what would that do to our

society I mean that that alone could collapse Society right what are your thoughts totally it would be a total

disaster yeah now I me you need you need a completely different psychosocial

Constitution you know um people individually and Society collectively would need to be structured in a

completely different way for us to be able to responsibly handle that kind of technology and I think I this goes to

your other point about you said maybe we set up a new Society that's libertarian

based you know where we bring the power back to the people I I think that might

be the answer back to the individual back to the individual and this is a very important distinction because you

know what uh I think libert Ians grasp correctly is that the United States for example was not supposed to be a

democracy the United States was a constitutional republic dedicated to the liberty of the individual and a

protection against tyranny of the majority and you know you can see very clearly in the Islamic world for example

how democracy is is not going to bring freedom to anybody if the majority of

people you know are you know psychologically captivated by tyrannical

ideas they're simply going to wind up martyring dissident minorities in their population uh and the same thing could

happen here with you know religious zealotry across a large portion of the population or warped ideologies of

various kinds across a l large portion of the population that are equally inimical to the individual and to

personal freedom so it has to be a society organized around personal freedom one of the problems with

libertarianism though is that it it's uh always defined in terms of freedom from

it's very much structured around the idea of negative Liberty and I think which then you know allows for

Libertarians to say for example in the name of free trade uh and in terms of

economic productivity we should bring all kinds of people from various cultures and religions here uh from

other countries and basically weaken our borders and so on so forth well then you're going to wind up with all kinds of people that have religious beliefs

and other ideological commitments you know come from uh very regressive cultures that in one way or another are

going to make them a a a demos a a a a demographic uh constituency that's

inimical to the liberty of the individual so you need a kind of libertarianism that's spiritually

grounded in a positive ideal of Freedom we would need a kind of spiritual

libertarianism and this is why you know I've framed my philosophical movement in terms of the archetype of Prometheus you

know defining it as a of prometheism which is essentially a spiritual

libertarianism it's a libertarianism grounded in a positive archetype and an ideal of you know human uh Ingenuity

innovation personal freedom and creativity and a resistance against

tyranny a resistance against you know every form that Olympus could take I

love that I heard a great thought too about like our surveillance apparatus has got complet completely out of

control the public really has no idea but there's nowhere hide there's nowhere to hide on planet Earth and um a lot of

people say well this is an invasion of our of our rights it is but at the same time unless they use it against you

actively there's you know you're not going to be able to make any Headway against it but I just thought what if we just took all that surveillance

apparatus and we just made it public there here's a website everybody has access to it you want to find out where

somebody was two days ago whatever log into the Google Earth video playback

rewind DVR it check over there that kind of seems like a good solution because you know the cat's out of the bag we're

we're not putting the genie back in the bottle on this one it's not surveillance apparatus is not going to go backwards so the next spe thing in my opinion is

let's stop having the intelligence Community monopolize this and give it to the people we might be able to solve a

whole bunch of crimes if we had access to all this stuff if you open source it what do you think yeah well uh this is

actually a significant theme in my work and it goes back to you know one of the things I was discussing with regard to

the pilots by the way if you hear construction sound my apologies I'm recording from Manhattan and one of our

Perpetual problems here is is you know just unending sounds it's fine anyway so um one of the things I wanted to say

about the pilots and the fact that Sai is is uh an integral part of the guidance system of these craft is that

if you're going to that would require so making this technology public would require also mainstream scientific

recognition of sigh which includes telepathy and Clairvoyance right so you're pointing to

Technologies of surveillance sensor systems you know cameras satellite

imagery Etc technological means of surveillance which are becoming

increasingly ubiquitous especially you know now that we're going into the the epoch of you know insect sized drones

that have audio and video surveillance equipment on them it's this increasingly

ubiquitous technological surveillance but if you consider that mainstream scientific

recognition of sa ability as part of a disclosure of like how the guidance system of a UFO Works would also mean

that we'd have to recognize that telepathy and Clairvoyance are latent human abilities that can be trained you

know the way that you know you train in a martial art well then we also are going to be W we're also going to wind

up in a society where there's no longer any enforceable privacy right I mean anyone can use Clairvoyance just the way

remote viewers do anyone can use Clairvoyance to spy on their neighbor or

you know their their you know the spouse that they cons they're they're suspecting of infidelity or whatever you

know corporate Secrets would not be secure we already have uh large

corporations like Sony would you know had been doing this I think from the 1990s onward uh large corporations using

Clair voy to steal proprietary secrets from other

rival companies so we wind up in a world where you know there's no longer any enforcable privacy or secrecy which is

what you're suggesting and my answer to that throughout my my writings has been

that again the only solution is to develop a form of society with

individuals who have such an impeccable ethical constitu

that they will not uh they will not um

involve themselves in an Uninvited and obtrusive way in the lives of their

neighbors we we would have to have a society where each person has enough meaning and purpose in her own life and

is uh you know focused on on um individual cultivation and projects of

personal meaning to the extent that they're not going to even be motivated to impinge on the privacy of their

fellow citizen okay now that's a very idealistic vision of the human

individual and certainly it's not going to be achievable on a population wide scale or anything close to it even

within the Western world but it's something that could be that could be um

uh aimed for by a small group of Renegades or Rogues the kind of Rebel

Alliance who might also try to appropriate Zer Point Energy technology

in constructive and empowering ways wow I like it I love your philosophy

honestly um but I do want to switch gears a little bit and ask you your opinion on some of these scientists

because you brought up you know psychic powers sigh Powers I think a lot of people are probably in the chat thinking

remote viewing and who was one of the pioneers of remote viewing well Hal POF in fact sources telling me that how POF

was nominated multiple times for the Nobel Prize specifically around his SpaceTime metric engineering kind of related to all the technology we were

talking about but that he was basically blackballed because of his research into remote viewing in I think the 60s and

the 70s what are your thoughts on the guys like Halal hudoff his uh right-hand

man Eric Davis and then also a side note what are your thoughts on people like

salvator pise Navy engineer with the UFO patents that that were you know approved

between 16 and 2018 well let me start with salvator P

who I who I actually I'm not all that familiar with but from you know the little bit of familiarity that I have

with him and what I've heard from other individuals who I respect it seems that you know his patents are legit and that

you know the guy at Le and he admits where he doesn't know uh you know he doesn't claim to know what he doesn't

know and it seems that within the domain where he has real expert knowledge he's

done you know legitimate work um it's it's interesting that he's at Liberty to

say as much as he has said and if I'm not

mistaken his position is that he doesn't know the extent to which these patents

this this theoretical model has actually been implemented in terms of engineering and design so so so maybe that gives him

a certain degree of safety uh because he's not making claims about what might actually have been engineered and any

case that's all I have to say about him in terms of put off

um yeah I mean the guy clearly has been involved uh both with the reverse

engineering program and also with psychic black projects and when I say

psychic black projects look first of all his remote viewing work in the 1970s

didn't end uh you know with the the um pilot uh program at SRI which had been

funded by the CIA put off was involved throughout the 1980s as they continued the remote viewing program and it

changed hands between the CIA and the dod W and what's more more important is

this and you know a little disturbing frankly you know I I met Russell tar and

I had a couple of um conversations with him where it became clear to me that he

you know he Russell tar was the the uh closest collaborator of Hal put

off in the initial SRI research on remote viewing and it became clear to me

that Russell tar thought that halp off and his backers had s sidelined

tar um because they were engaged in

questionable activities uh in terms of the use of not

just remote viewing but remote influencing for the purposes of assassination which is something that

the Soviet Union had been doing and we found out that the Soviet Union was doing it and uh supposedly there was

another remote viewing unit besides the one that had its funding canceled in

1991 92 by Congress there was an even deeper black project uh that may have

been associated with Naval intelligence and this is the unit that Pat price was

um pulled out of the main remote viewing unit to work for Pat price was a a psychic who worked with police

departments you know on missing children cases and things like this and he was tremendously Adept in his Clairvoyant

abilities compared to the other people in the program at one point he was taken from out of the main remote viewing

program to some other program and then he turned up dead shortly thereafter and

Russell tar was convinced that Hal put off knew what had happened to Pat price and that this had been part of that

basically put off was a was an intermediary he was a uh

liaison between the secret remote viewing program and then a super top

secret remote viewing program which continues to this day and that price had been recruited into that program the

main the more public facing one oh the one that had to report back to Congress

let's say was being used to find really top talent to recruit into the other

deeper black project and they were doing things like remote influencing and psychic assassination in that project

and possibly possibly Pat price I mean look this is a guy at Pat price who spent his time uh trying to find missing

kids for police departments right so it shows you a certain type of person yeah

I could well imagine that if that person were being asked to murder people using psychokinesis uh he might have some

objections to it and and maybe you know he was going to talk and so next thing he's found dead um so anyway yes I look

I don't want to make any accusations but uh I this is what you know Russell Tark himself suspected that his collaborator

Hal put off at least knew the people who were running this more secret rem remote

viewing program and that they had been involved in you know the murder of Pat price wow yeah we've independently

concluded that how put off's the final boss like he's got to be way up in the hierarchy of whatever is going on with

this whole UFO topic and you know it it's hard because I respect the science

and everything that he's put out there I don't think we'd be where we're at right now understanding zeroo energy without

all of his scientific papers that he put out there but at the same time I do feel like if he was somebody that wanted me

gone he could make that happen like I do think he's got those level of connections that are out there so you

know I I don't think you're going to ever see a guy like Hal POF on Joe Rogan or mainstream TV these are the guys they

don't they don't care about the the accolades they don't care about the the fame or what have you he doesn't care

about the Nobel Prize he's just an old school like you know spook for a lack of

a better term but you know so it's kind of for me it's like there's the good and there's the bad and it's kind of hard to

separate some of that which I think goes into the the next thing which is like if

we were to try to get this disclosure of this this technology that's out there do you think we would have to offer amnesty

for this because you mentioned the amount of crimes that have been committed I mean also look at like the Civil liability as well not even just

the criminal but like if we gave preferential treatment to say locked Martin for example now all their

competitors can say we're going to sue you because you were given unfair Advantage by the government they gave

you a UFO or you know any type of preferential treatment so do you think we'd have to do an amnesty or do you

think what what is the way to actually get there to be an incentive for this to come

out look I'm sorry to be so Grim uh in in responding to the to your question

with with the following question who is we here in your formulation who is we

because if we is you know the American people through Congress or whatever it's

not gonna happen okay it's just not gonna happen what I think is more realistic and also more

challenging is um a scenario where certain

highlevel operatives Engineers Within These

programs defect to a

revolutionary organization that has a new vision for

society and what I mean here is look in the in the um overthrow of the Soviet

Union okay by yelton's people there were defections obviously

that took place as part of the transition between the Soviet Security State and the current Russian Security

State I mean there are situations where well essentially regime changes happen

and at that point a new legal order comes into being one Constitution is

replaced by another Constitution and there's a kind of deao amnesty that takes place in so far as you know the

the there isn't a Continuum of a legal system right and there's an opportunity

for kind of legal reset to take place and you know in such a revolutionary

situation in the transition between two regimes uh it it's possible that you

could get high level defections from within these programs but then the defectors are also people who are

embracing a new ideal of how Society should be organized so it involves a a

really fundamental change of heart on their part you know uh in a scenario

which I mean the Russian Russian transition between Soviet Union and and the current system there is not the best

example I'm considering something that would look more like let's say the French Revolution if you know we had a

change of system and a social uh revolution in this country that was comparable to what took place in France

in you know 1789 to 1793 something like that well then you know there's a new

ideal of society for these individuals to devote themselves to as part of

coming clean with this technology and I think that barring that scenario we are

unfortunately on a cattle car headed for whatever it is that these overlords have

planned for us yeah pretty scary I do wonder it it

does seem like it's impossible the letter that was written to me which I think was legitimate at this point about a year ago said the only thing you can

really do against somebody with this level of power that can control the media that can shape A Narrative of

events is you talk about them you talk about them and you don't stop talking about them which is why I'm talking to

you why I do what I do now let's change gears for a second would you agree with

the assertion that Zero Point Energy uh this idea of unlimited reservoir of

energy all around us means that we're basically still cavemen in the cosmic

scheme of things or how would you rate the human civilization right

now here's the problem with how that's framed it assumes by default implicitly

implicitly assumes that the people who are flying around in these UFOs are not

also human whereas I think that actually they are at least the majority of them are now I I wouldn't rule out that there

are some aliens here um but it looks to me I mean based on the study

that I did in in my book closer encounters that we're dealing with human Time Travelers wow so do you oh keep going go

ahead no uh no that's great I and so I guess so are do you uh do you believe do

you subscribe to the belief that it's possibly some of these are future humans then I know I heard Hal POF say this I

used to think that that idea was silly but the more I started to research like the double slit experiment non-locality

there's a version of it called the delayed Choice Quantum eraser and in that variant it presents an extremely

strong argument about retrocausality information from the future impacting the present which and

this is where I I don't completely close a door on reverse time travel because you have stuff like that it's like man

maybe there is a way to do it is that so you think there's a real possibility of future humans being one of the answers to the phenomenon I certainly do in fact

I think it's it's the most likely explanation for these socalled nordics these you know tall Scandinavian looking

people I think that they're from a future I don't say the future because

you know how they Chang the past through their time travel might you know alter

the future that they're coming from but they are they are from a future and I had a long conversation with Jac B about

this at his home you know that evening where I you know uh we had dinner at his

home and I asked him point blank are they coming from the future and he said yeah they basically are I'm like well

why don't you just tell people that then you know um and you know his answer had to do with the amount of manipulation of

human religious systems that's taken place and the sociological catastrophe that you know uh is represented by

disclosing that to people um because the basically these these entities have been

involved in Social Engineering on a planetary scale through the creation and

manip ulation of various uh dominant religious belief systems throughout history uh you know basically framing

themselves as the gods or Titans or Angels you know um of various religious

belief systems the dvas let's say of Hinduism and you know I I've

also uh I've also heard from another senior Military Intelligence uh official

who is was was involved with um kit green

who is a doctor who works with the CIA kit green is a a medical doctor with a

some kind of expertise in genetics who uh has a is a career CIA officer and

this gentleman in Military Intelligence told me that um kit green was running a

program from out of the CIA where they were using the genetic material from all

these like 23 and me and you know whatever these ancestry.com and whatever

these you know public uh genetic sequencing programs that they had a back door CIA had a back door to this data

and that they were data mining it looking for certain genetic markers

which would indicate that whatever individual is a product of hybridization

with the the nordics that the nordics it's known that they're human but they have a slightly

different uh you know they have a slight genetic deviation from ours and it's

known at the CIA what is the specific genetic variance between them and us and

they can determine whether people within our population individuals within our population are

hybrids and what furthermore what this individual told me is that the uh at

least recently the concern about the hybrids is that there are there are how

could you call them fugitives there are fugitives from this Nordic Society who

are leaving the totalitarian system that they live under in a kind of Underground

Railroad like comparable to the way the slaves you know left the South and came into the north that there's some kind of

aist them in place for these nordics to become fugitives and then mix themselves

into our society in a relatively nondescript way and that they have a lot

of property in particular in the Colorado Rockies region in very isolated

areas small towns and so forth and sometime and they but they don't tell

their children necessarily what their true ancestry is I don't know maybe they tell them they're from Norway or whatever and the kids wind up you know

these super tall like basketball player types and what and um by the time it gets to the generation of their

grandkids they have no idea what their actual ancestry is but if they do a DNA

test like with ancestry.com or 23 and me today the CIA will see the genetic

variant and they're out looking for it because they're concerned about these

fugitive nordics infiltrating our population this Military Intelligence uh

officer was confronted by three I think he said of these

nordics himself and he said one of them they

they confronted him at a place he routinely eats breakfast I suppose he was being surveilled so they knew where

he showed up on a regular basis to eat breakfast and he said one of them

basically stood outside the booth that you know the the dining booth and was

acting as a kind of Shield to everybody around like you know keeping a watch out

and maybe somehow like telepathically putting a block on the conversation and

then two of them sat there with him and had a conversation with him and what they said to him was look go back to

your people I don't know kick green at the CIA other Military Intelligence you

know Associates of this individual go back to your people and tell them that we're not here trying to infiltrate your

government or stage some kind of a coup in the future or whatever we're here because we want want our children to

grow up in Liberty and and you know relative freedom and we're fleeing an oppressive

Society okay and please just go get this message across and please tell them to leave our children alone wow wow that is

mindblowing because I actually I mean it I could see it I could see that being the answer I could see a lot of what you

just mentioned being the answer the future humans possibility uh the possibility of the

human the aliens looking just like us this is something that I've been pondering for months now which is like

what if the humans were indistinguishable from us there's so many different races of humans on this

planet as well like if it was just a tall you know white guy like how would we know that's an alien and that would

be the perfect way to blend in like why are we not seeing more videos of aliens we see lots of videos of UFOs lots and

lots and lots we see almost none of aliens so that one really really

resonates with me in particular and the idea of hybridizing as well in that perspective is less nefarious than

this idea of little gray men pulling you up on their ship and then you know

sexually assaulting you or whatever they do and making like a weird alien baby you know it's that's more realistic

approach to it the other thing you mentioned earlier which I liked was this idea of organic comp you know computerized AI

being you know I think that that's what people a lot of people have said about the gray aliens is that they are like

actually not really conscious in the way that we are and it's more of like some type of manufactured being that's out

there um go ahead they're robots yeah like

basically got organic robot which if you know seems outlandish from the perspective of where our public

technology is now but not really when you look at stuff like AI advancement crisper technology as well um there was

techology yeah there was a post called um ebo scientists uh on Reddit like a

year and a half ago I want to say that presented it was a full physiology of a

gray alien being and one part of it too was like it kind of presented this idea

that this could be a you know biologically created entity because when they looked at their their genome they

claimed that they didn't have all the junk DNA that we have like it was all very specific every part of the genome

had a purpose it was very clear and that part to me is like wow that that could be the case there could be some connection here so there could be more

than one thing definitely going on now with respect to Breakaway

civilization know you mentioned this idea of the nordics like who do you think is in charge or how who controls

the Breakaway civilization and for the people out there who don't know what that means it can mean a lot of stuff it doesn't necessarily mean aliens I think

it can mean people factions that here that have this level of technology that are hoarding it that are aware of it do

you think it's as simple as the military defense contractors big energy

combination of these things other random Rich billionaires Elon Musk what do you

think look there are multiple possibilities all of which I go through in my book closer encounters um and

these possibilities might actually be part of one single larger

more complex scenario that involves time so let me let me run through a few of

these uh you know possibilities obviously the simplest one is you know you think of a breakaway

civilization in terms of our deep State having reverse engineered this

technology and then as it moved into the private sector uh and Aerospace uh took

over uh they became increasingly unaccountable and they're using I don't

know black budget money from uh the control of the Global Drug trade and

arms trafficking and so forth to develop an in relatively autonomous economic base and so then they they U launch a

space program of their own you know you know Gary McKinnon and is claims that there's a secret us space Fleet and so

on so forth and so eventually over time spinning from out of the Aerospace industry and from out of you know

military and intelligence illicit drug trafficking and arms trafficking and so forth you have a spin-off civilization

that breaks away from you know the public sphere of the planet y That's the

simplest explanation yeah now that wouldn't explain the airships in 1890 uh 1897 1896

1897 where interestingly enough at that

time it appears that the harman railroad magnates were involved in

investigating or Andor funding this Airship development JP Morgan was in

involved Rockefeller was significantly involved because Rockefeller was discovering oil and setting up the you

know oil as the primary source of non-renewable energy at that time so if you think of the railways as the main uh

mechanism by which you know material was transported shipping

took place right along you know Continental distances well that rail

industry is definitely going to be threatened by an Airship invention and then you think about you know oil as a

Source petroleum as a source for powering you know what what were also the first automobiles that were being developed at the time and you could see

how Rockefeller and his oil industry would be threatened so if you see people like Harman and Rockefeller involved in

you know the 1897 Airship mystery and then you look at the fact that JP Morgan

who seems to have been the New York Finance year for some of these Airship people JP Morgan was also Nicola Tesla's

financier and bought up basically all of Tesla's patents only in order to bury them possibly though to also hand them

to the secret group who were doing parallel work you know in in a in a uh

uh parallel work I don't want to say in a classified uh manner but you know in a way that that was never intended to

benefit the general public yeah right and so there you could have a breakaway

civilization that dates to the 1890s that's another possibility yep but then

you have to look at the empirical evidence for Atlantis or whatever you want to call it in other words some

worldwide super Advanced civilization engaged in you know megalithic uh you

know engineering with a degree of precision that we're barely capable of

today and you know and then all the accounts across various ancient cultures

of flying machines associated with these civilizer Gods right so is the Breakaway

civilization actually a survival of Atlantis where even though this uh

worldwide technical culture was destroyed um on a large scale it somehow

went underground or went underwater and broke away from the public sphere at

that time 12,000 years before the present and it's been you know engaged in managing Affairs and socially

engineering the various civilizations of our planet ever since then so that's another potential explanation of the

origin of the Breakaway civilization namely that it's some kind of a survival of uh Atlantean culture and by the way

by the way I was told um by uh this same CIA um officer

who sat in Roundtable meetings with Abel Haynes same guy told me that which which

really aggravated me by the way that this book was being read in the CIA and

in the defense intelligence agency and he grilled me for about an hour and

a half um you know asking me how I figured this out and how I figured that

out like he basically it looked like he was trying to plug a leak and he thought I was getting inside information from

various people uh and he was like listen somehow you managed to put you know 80%

of the jigsaw puzzle pieces together in the same way that we did how and one of

the things he said to me was know about the atlantans and their

connection to this and it one of one of our security issues is that we know that

these people aren't coming from another planet they have submarine uh not just facilities but

like city-sized bases under the oceans and that they represent a survival from the

Atlantean civilization wow uh so you could have a breakaway civilization that started from

12,000 years before the present and then the final possibility which

actually if it'ss it encompasses and incorporates all of these data points is

that it's a breakaway civilization from the future yeah and the defense

contractors become these nordics a 100 200 years into the future

whatever and they violate the timeline okay so that they reach back

into the past to become the atlantans which then explains you know how you

know this civilization on the one hand is demonstrating tremendous engineering capability but on the other hand doesn't

have any organic evolutionary history in the human anthropological record as if

like they dropped out from somewhere yeah right not from another planet but possibly from out of the human

future and contaminated the timeline so it could be that they they it could be

that the Breakaway civilization begins with the 189 electrogravitic airships it continues

with the 1950s further advances in the Aerospace industry of the anglo-american deep state becomes these time traveling

nordics who then reach back from the future and Seed Atlantean civilization

which then becomes a breakaway civilization continuing to manage Affairs on the planet so you know my

apologies for how how convoluted that spiders web spider web is but it may in

fact be what we're dealing with Yeah man so let me respond a couple of that like first off when you talk about the time

aspect I I keep thinking about the show True Detective where Matthew mcconn talks about time is a flat circle and my

buddy Dave Rosy who's also a DOD contract engineer um who's who's relatively

connected he went on Tim pool with me like almost a year ago and he said as well that like we have to think of time

not as this linear thing but think of it as like a circle where you know things you know what you think of happened you

know your lunch you think lunch happened after breakfast but when you look at it from the outside that's not necessarily

the case it reminds me of the show dark as well where time becomes deterministic uh so I keep my my mind

open to that type of stuff but I love the underwater theory of Atlantis or what have you because for me there's a

few factors I throw in there one is that this technology is not an invention it's

a discovery in my opinion it's a discovery of nature discovering there's energy all around you and then how to

tap into that much like figuring out that we can make fire and so I say there's not a you don't have to be

around for a certain period of time to figure this technology out you just need to look at the universe in the right perspective which opens the door to

ancient civilizations like the PE the people who built the pyramids having some potential anti-gravity type

technology even though they might have not had the material science technology that we have today and then also our

history doesn't make any sense like our human civilization only goes back like 10,000 years or like something like that

like I If you just objectively look at human civilization where we're at right now you would think we should have

history going back like a 100,000 years like that we should have recorded history for that but all of a sudden

it's just we don't know anything about before 10,000 years before that and then we've got stuff like gcki Tey which is

like 18 to 25,000 years old and it's clearly like you know it's like

Stonehenge and people are wondering like how did they even build this and we thought we were like hunter gatherers

then but it's clear that they at least had rituals if not cities at that point and so this stuff to me opens the door

to this idea of Atlantis and that Atlantis could have had this and I love the idea of the underwater you like we

don't we haven't really ma the Ocean Floors there's a lot of like kind of conspiracy stuff about the no OAA

potentially hiding something that's at the bottom of the oceans somewhere as well you've got the um stuff in the

public sphere about like the Bermuda Triangle and people disappear hearing and there was like some whistleblowers

claiming that the NOAA is hiding like something underneath the water so I love all of those ideas that are out there

and so thank you for bringing those up now uh you can respond to that briefly

just because you you brought up the Bermuda Triangle there's this part in in my book

closer encounters where I

correlate Naval and aerial disappearances in the Bermuda

Triangle with the dates and times that people go missing in National

Parks so David pus has done this research on all the people who go

missing every year in National Parks under extremely bizarre circumstances where there are search and

rescue operations that take place and scour the area where the person went missing and there's no trace of this

person and then their remains show up there like three weeks

later and you see that they haven't eaten any of the food that they had to survive they Le let's say it's a freeze

it's the middle of winter but they've taken their boots and their jacket off you know really weird cases like this

where it's as if the person disappeared and wasn't there when the search and rescue was ongoing and then

the person came back into our time continuum at some later point right uh having wondered you know Lord

knows in what other you know SpaceTime right in what other epok before finding their way back into our uh SpaceTime and

I have this one little section in closer encounters where I note that the times

that some of these people go uh Missing in these national parks correspond to

moments when aircraft and ships are lost in the Bermuda Triangle and I asked the

question is this because there are um there are bases

underneath some of these national parks where a hyperdimensional technology is

being used to teleport people between the Bermuda Triangle some facility some

major thing underneath the Bermuda Triangle and whatever bases are under our national parks and it's like

whenever they turn this thing on at both locations people wind up as collateral damage

whether they're on boats or on planes in the brim triangle or whether they're hikers in the National Park seems to be

that at you know at the same time in these two different places people wind up going missing uh so it's among the

odd lines of research that I look at in closer encounter yeah a big fan of Dave pes's he's been following me for a while

as well because of the idea of you know missing people and me researching the plane 239 people just gone off the face

of the Earth no one knows where they're at at um so big shout out to him by way by the way another another relevant

thing uh with regard to that and time travel is all of these outof Place objects that have been found in the

geological record where you know at strata that go back like 60 million years you find some woman's golden chain

or you know at a as strum of I don't know like uh 300 million years there's

like a a a gold coin but it's like a Roman coin yeah and so look it stands to

reason that if people go missing in our national parks today and they're disappearing into some spatio temporal

Vortex they might be popping out you know in the era of the dinosaurs and

this might explain the footprints that you know supposed human Footprints you find near petrified dinosaur uh prints

that are you know fallaciously used by creationists to argue that the world is not more than 5,000 years old so so in

any case you could have as you were saying you know by studying nature you can discover certain physical principles

it may be that uh there are just you know spatio temporal vortices in nature

and that we found a way to technologically replicate them that's also a possibility yeah makes sense and

I do want to point out too is that I love your thought process and logical and your intuition and you're not saying

that you know all of your theories are necessarily correct but you're you're just putting the dots together and you're saying hey guys here are some possibilities for for what could be

happening and it doesn't surprise me at all to make that you would say the claim that like people they're literally like

reading your book and like skips and like that wondering like who's leaking information to this guy actually people

have told me that they've thought the same thing about me related to the plane search and what have you that somebody must be leaking

information uh but that's not the case everything I've researched has been open search open source and this is why I

tell people it's hiding in plain sight you know that there's the cover up of all this stuff is hiding in plain sight

if people just paid attention to what what's out there we could potentially get full disclosure but people don't

because we're so brainwashed by the authority and told that we should just believe whatever the academics tell us

whatever the media tells us whatever the government tells us so this kind of leads to the last topic I want to

discuss with you um which is like who is hiding this technology like who do you

think it's just locked Martin do you think there are several uh defense contractors that have it do you think

that the big energy companies also have this type of technology and do you think

the Trump Administration will be able to make any difference or do you think that these people are above even the

president or do you think that Trump's captured what what is your opinion on on that front in terms of you know who controls

the technology you know in a very like mundane nuts and bolts way uh clearly

locked has it and um I think that RFK Jr

uh no yeah no he did he certainly did in one of his interviews maybe more than one of his interviews he straight out

said that his father had been assassinated by a

locked um executive who had a history with the CIA as well but it was

basically locked killed RFK okay that only makes sense from one

perspective there's only one reason why locked is going to kill RFK okay uh it's

because JFK was going to disclose this stuff and his brother running for president was going to pick up on his

you know on on JFK's uh initiative um and so look lock certainly

uh is uh involved in controlling this information and has a lot to lose from potential disclosure as you mentioned

also lawsuits because you know other companies weren't given equal bidding

rights for these defense contracts another company that probably has some of it is Northrop Grumman

because if you look at you know the B2 bomber you know analyses have been done that show that there's no way that thing

can exhibit the performance characteristics that it does if it just has the propulsion system that's being

publicly acknowledged it it incorporates some kind of Townsen Brown you know

positive negative polarization and that's giving it some kind of compensatory or augmented

electrogravitic lift uh so I would say to l extent northr Grumman has it and

then I think there are probably some energy companies that are involved if I remember correctly eg& G yeah eg&g yeah was in

involved in in um that's one that Bob Lazar worked for claims to have worked

for when he was working at S4 yeah right yes so uh I would say probably there are

a couple of energy and then there's also metery people who are involved like Beckel the beel company people who've

been looking at trying to reverse engineer The Meta materials in some of these but by the way I saw some of your

shows on this I agree with you entirely that the meta material is not necessary it's not NE the the the Nazis weren't

using it yeah in 1943 44 when they were developing for entirely conventional

purposes the Nazis were developing saucer airframes and it had to do with

simply the fact that there's less air resistance and it's a very aerodynamic kind of design and then later they

combine this saucer shaped airframe with the Bell as a propulsion device but that

saucer even though it was microperforated they had developed the technique to micr perforate metal so

that there there the it it uh it's part of what they call suctioning of the

boundary layer so that the air that forms around the edge of an aircraft which then creates air resistance can be

suctioned into the aircraft and siphoned off in a way that allows it to basically cut through the air like a knife through

butter yeah and but that's not meta material it's just sophisticated

airframe design so you don't need a meta material but there are companies like the Beil corporation that are working on

you know uh reverse engineering the recovered debris from Roswell and so forth and they also consider that

proprietary corporate information and they're part of the gatekeeping structure and so do you think that Trump

is going to be able to make a difference you think that tulsy gabard will make a difference or you think they get they're going to get the call and not on their

own not on their own they're not going to they don't have a hope in hell um you know breaking this this uh control

system uh of their own initiative but if there is a defection in process within

the control system itself and there there are a group of people who are interested in staging some kind of a

coup they could use the transition to the Trump Administration and individuals

like Tulsi gabard and Kos Patel and you know RFK and Trump himself to uh be a

moment of opportunity yeah for a kind of soft coup um so but the initiative would

have to come from people within the control system itself I think that's a good way to put

it you know is that it could be a moment of opportunity and maybe that was what happened with Salvador P's patents as

well in terms of how they got out to the public there's also a mystery about why you would even make those patents public

so I I think that I have hope but like you I think it's unlikely that we're going to get it under the administration

but the more we talk about it maybe we can will it into existence who knows um also want to point out too that yeah the

B2 I had heard that it's definitely electrogravitics that they're using on the wings they're just using the Byfield Brown effect uh you create that

asymmetrical charge and you get excess lift you know this is how these crafts drones at this point I mean B2 is old

that's old Tech now so I presume that all of our spy planes even drones are basically using this um okay so the last

question I want to ask you which is that when I we add up everything we talked about here today to me this means that

disclosure the UFO topic has some very dark answer to it behind the

scenes do you think and this is something Salvador pis when I interviewed him kind of brought up and I

something I've been kind of on board with for a while is this Prison Planet scenario which I think is kind of

open-ended but the idea that there is some ruling class of elite or

potentially extraterrestrial whatever you want to believe that is essentially managing our entire society and I forget

what the qu who the guy is that quotes it but like the best prisoners are ones that don't even know they're in a prison

you know and that we could be being managed like that where they're slow dripping this technology out to us

little by little where you know they're they're managing every aspect of our society do you think that's a plausible

explanation or what are your opinions ABS on what could be this dark thing that you know this is all absolutely

absolutely and look this is not a new thought when you read Charles

Fort who researched this subject from the 1910s into the 1930s in a series of

books that he wrote uh the book of the Damned while talents low

uh new lands in the 1930s Charles Fort said look the entities piloting these

craft are like the British colonizers in India and we're a farm to

them okay uh and he basically compared it to a to a situation of

colonization so this is not a new idea and I think there's a tremendous amount of evidence in favor of it especially

again if you look at the religious belief systems that have dominated human history I mean look at the dvas in

Hinduism and their connection to the extremely hierarchical and oppressive cast system okay uh and look at the way

ancient Egyptian Society was structured uh look at the Sumerian myths and what they tell us about you know how enlil

saw Humanity basically as a slave race right and how en

though tried to um disrupt that program and to an advocate and a champion for

Humanity enki who is very much a uh you know correlate to the Greek figure of

Prometheus who leads a revolt on behalf of humanity against the tyrannical power of Olympus so I don't think it's a

monolithic control system I think that there are Rebels within it after all the

people who are managing this system let me belabor the point people who are managing the system are like any other

human beings you know subject to complex psychological motivations they are open

to potential defections changes of heart you know no human system is entirely monolithic but if you remember going

back to what this Military Intelligence uh uh guy told me who met with a few of these nordics um who were imploring him

to go back to Kit green and and his associates and tell them to leave the you know their kids

alone they were fugitives from a totalitarian system it was like they

view of their own Society was that it was something akin to North Korea and

they were trying to escape from basically the Nordic North Korea right so well this is grim I mean if the

people managing our planet are like North Korea you know we're not in a

great situation and look we can only hope and it does

seem that there are dissidents within that system but we need to develop an

interface that's devoted to Liberty and the individual and our creative

potential so that if there are dissonant within that system then they have people to work with you know we can't uh sit

here and expect to be saved and by the way that's an incredibly dangerous expectation because undoubtedly if there

are people who want to tyrannize over you and your basic attitude is that you're waiting to be saved from out of the sky uh you know you're basically

signing yourself over to a new Epoch of slavery right yeah you're you're gonna

be subject to a a cognitive dissonance scheme and a bait and switch where you

know you think you're trading you're trading your slave master for Liberty but it's actually just two heads of the

same Hydra I agree 100% especially in the last part I don't think anybody's coming to save us I think we're the only

ones that can save ourselves and I don't agree with the people that say we just have to wait for the aliens to come save

us or or what have you there so that is the most Insidious and nefarious uh aspect the so-called

disclosure program that is being unfolded for us right now if you look at the connections between certain

individuals like Diana Pula and Daniel Shihan and the Vatican

and other individuals with other occult religious organizations their basic

attitude is let's prepare people for the scious guides and guardians of humanity

these you know these humanoids who never sinned and therefore never needed Christ to come save them they're going to come

the guides and guardians of humanity and they will control our society in a way that gives us access to this free energy

right this is the totalitarian that we're being set up for yeah 100% I hate

it it's like the One World Government stuff it's the oh it's just like in the movies here they coming to save us like

I think people got to start wrapping their brain around this this this topic this UFO phenomenon is not going to be

like the movies it's not going to be this glorification that everybody's pushing out there is going to be dark

there's going to be evil stuff that's been conducted to keep it secret and people should be expecting the

unexpected that's what I would say absolutely so Jason thank you so much for talking to me man you are amazing

this was an awesome conversation I want to have more conversations in the future with you for sure let me give you a

minute to go ahead and uh shout out your book again Close Encounters everybody should read that I mean it's going to

dig more into everything that we've been talking about here uh tell us where we can find you uh you know and where

people can check out your content sure the book is closer encounters uh play on

Close Encounters obviously closer encounters and you can find links to all my books and my social media at my

website jasonr jan.com you maybe uh put a link to that in the show notes Jason

rajan.com it has a link to my X account my YouTube uh all my books on Amazon and

so forth okay we'll do thank you very much Jason this has been another episode of hard TRS take it easy everybody